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Author Topic: MAF Diameter suggestion?  (Read 47014 times)
NOTORIOUS VR
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« on: February 11, 2011, 02:24:38 PM »

I've got some Tial 605's on the way and am trying to decide which way to go as far as MAF housings are concerned.

I've been thinking about getting the Ford Lightning MAF housing (90mm), or trying to find some other used 85mm housing used on some Stg. 3 applications.

I'm running a stock motor for now and will cap my power around 460awhp and assume I will need approx 25-26psi for that... although I might start to increase boost as TQ start to drop off, so I might end up with close to 30psi by redline.

That said, any suggestions?
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judeisnotobscure
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2011, 09:13:13 AM »

i'm interested to see what anyone says about this... i saw on epl's website that a 605 car they tuned was using an 85mm maf housing.  just based of the pics it looks like they use something different for the 770's though.
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2011, 10:36:51 AM »

Well I got one of my ford buddies looking into a 90mm Lightning MAf for me, and yesterday I got a free 4.2L Bosch MAF housing (85mm) from my buddy @ SEM Motorsports.

I have a spare OE Hitachi MAF & housing, so I was thinking of modding the 85mm 4.2L housing to accept the Hitachi MAF (just some plastic welding).

Thoughts?

As for the EPL stuff... It seems Tony's new GT fueling kit is using a completely different MAF sensor element as well, which is supposed to support more flow.  That's what I've gotten from his posts about it anyway.
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2011, 10:55:50 AM »

Every MAF is going to be different, and there are a lot of variables that affect how much power you make with every lb of air that flows through it.  I remember back in the day that a lot of the mustang guys were pegging the 90mm lightning maf at just over 500rwhp.  The transfer function is well documented, and they top out at 62lb/min of air flow.

Since 1lb of air makes between 9.5 and 10.5hp, you can see this maf will peg between 590 and 650 crank horsepower.
 
Keep in mind not all maf housings are created equal either, even if they are the same diameter at the sampling point.
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2011, 12:08:47 PM »

Good info Jason...

So in your opinion, will the 85MM 4.2L MAF flow enough for my goals?
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2011, 01:22:50 PM »

My advice is to use what MAF will work for your current goals, and change it again later when you build the bottom end.  As long as you plan to tune within the limits of the stock rods, I'd say you're probably OK.  As far as above and beyond, I really have no experience there, because at some point I believe you will have no other choice but to underscale the MAF, which will require starting from scratch.

The thing is, you can always change the maf if you peg it.  I am running an ASP 85mm housing with hybrids and fairly aggressive boost and have not pegged the maf, even though my bottom end is on borrowed time.  I think the 85 should be OK for now.

Log every run, and progressively add desired load while tweaking your fueling/ignition based on the logs...  If your MAF is too small you will creep up to the limit this way, and it should be apparent when you hit it.  At that point you can either decide to keep the car within the limits of the MAF, or move up.

The thing is, being previously from the mustang world, I have seen people take the "gonzo" approach, throw a 100mm maf on their car, it runs great at WOT, and then they are irritated when it doesn't idle well, or stalls when declutched at high speed because the air under the hood is turbulent enough to upset the sampling at low engine speeds.
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2011, 03:27:51 PM »

Good stuff, thanks for the insight.

I will probably stick with my free 85mm then and work from there... Even if I have to underscale a bit to reach my desired boost/power levels that would be fine with me.  In any case maybe by the time I am ready to really push my setup (with a built bottom end) we will have more info for a MAF setup like EPL has now.
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Tony@NefMoto
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2011, 04:33:43 PM »

I believe this is the new MAF that EPL is running:
http://www.promracing.com/mass-air-meters-c-2/pro80-p-5
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2011, 05:45:38 PM »

Interesting. I actually stumbled on that page 2 nights ago when looking for Ford lightening mafs.

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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2011, 07:38:57 PM »

I can't believe they are charging $50 for the 30 point transfer function now.
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2011, 12:43:32 PM »

Well... here is my 4.2L 85mm MAF conversion... I did a simple plastic weld just to hold it in place.  I'm going to tweak it so it's as straight/centered as possible and then weld it up, and seal it with epoxy.

Comments/suggestions?




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« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2011, 11:53:50 PM »

You guys should take two cues from the Ford guys:

#1 - extending the metering capacity of the meter at the expense of resolution is fairly trivial.  All the Ford meters (which are hitachi) use a 12V supply, power GND, signal GND, signal.  The signal can and will go over 5v if you push enough air through the meter, but the ECU is limited to 0->VRef on the ADC channels, which is usually 5v.  You can put a voltage divider on the signal line coming out of the meter (ok, it would be better to use an Op-amp, but...) and you greatly increase the maximum air limit of the meter at the expense of resolution.  If you don't feel like getting down and dirty with the electronics, Diablosport make a plug n play product called the MAFiA that has 8 selectable dividers.  You can almost double the metering capacity of a meter with a MAFiA.

#2 The PMAS HPX "slot style" meters just plain rule.  They have an integrated air temp sensor.  They bolt to a flange on a piece of pipe so you can meter as much air as you want by changing the housing size.  I've done several 600+ HP Mustangs with a 102mm (4") housing and a HPX meter.  Plus you can also use a voltage divider / MAFiA if you need to.  Another plus of these meters is that they do BLOW THROUGH MAF like a champ!  The GM variant of these meters (which read in frequency instead of voltage) are actually used as a blow through meter in an OEM application I believe (Saturn Sky / Pontiac Solstice 2.4L turbo)
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« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2011, 09:49:50 AM »

I will be doing 770s on my car soon and the MAf problem doesn't let me sleep at night (well, not really but almost).

As is, even 90mm Ford Lightning MAF will not be enough to properly meter the air. I would like to stick to old and familiar Hitachi element so maybe 95mm MAF would be sufficient... But I am wondering if I am not getting myself into idling problems with such large housing.

On the other token, it would seem that relatively "small" audi 85mm V8 bosch element maf can read more air (at 5v) than hitachi in 90mm housing so maybe this would be the way to go...

Anyway, should I end up with what seems like most reasonable solution of 90mm housing, would I have to essentially tune with wideband O2 at WOT and adjust maf readings table (forgot the name of table now but you can adjust MAF readings for rpm/load) to hit a sweet spot since my MAF would be out of its reading range. Or above mentioned signal dividers and rescaling of main MAF table is the way to go?

Thanks./
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Tony@NefMoto
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« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2011, 01:16:26 PM »

Anyway, should I end up with what seems like most reasonable solution of 90mm housing, would I have to essentially tune with wideband O2 at WOT and adjust maf readings table (forgot the name of table now but you can adjust MAF readings for rpm/load) to hit a sweet spot since my MAF would be out of its reading range. Or above mentioned signal dividers and rescaling of main MAF table is the way to go?

You could just rescale the MAF correction table at high and high air flow. But in doing so your car will become much more sensitive to air temperature and air density, since you have now essentially hard coded the expected air flow when you hit the limit of the MAF.
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« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2011, 03:03:04 PM »

I realize that and recognize the shortcomings. In my personal opinion the voltage dividers would probably be the way to go if the maf is indeed capable of outputting over 5v signal when it maximum measurable air mass is exceeded.

From the looks of it, your V8 85mm housing should just about be ok for 605 in moderate boost but you will definitely hit the wall at anything over 25psi of boost and more air being pushed into the block.

I am hitting a limit of 85mm EPL housing which tapers from stock air box to 85mm to Rs4 accordion when I am at about 24psi of boost. My MAf logged MAF flow hits the max value and I slowly start getting lean on wideband. I since lowered to 22 psi since I don't want to kill my k04s but I think it would get even worse with better turbos like 605s.

EPL. Since EPL has successfully incorporated the 360deg maf linked above, it sounds like this would be way to go. According to these people, it can reliably measure air up to a vicinity of 800HP which is more than anybody sane would need on 2.7t engine.

All we would need is the maf map for it Smiley. Can we hijack EPL tune to get it? Smiley
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 03:05:42 PM by julex » Logged
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